Ruminations

The Trinity Logically Defended

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For those who are interested in theology, Christianity is well-known for its unique doctrine of the Trinity. The idea that one God can be more than one person can appear strange and outright absurd in addition to counter-intuitive. Some consider it tritheism, others simply find the whole idea too weird. Explaining how this can be possible logically has been the goal of Christian theologians for at least 900 years.

I believe there is a way to understand the Trinity, not only as consistent, but also to provide an example of it. In addition, I think that it’s not only Christians who have to explain a situation like the doctrine of the Trinity – I think that everyone has a related problem, including theists and non-theists alike!

So this is the Table of Contents for our little hypothesis:

I) The Trinity Logically Defended (with Math – Set Theory)
…..I.A) Objections
……….I.A.1) Equality
……….I.A.2) Identity
……….I.A.3) Infinity and the Real World
……….I.A.4) Infinite Sums and Limits
……….I.A.4) The Existence of Numbers and the Simplicity of God
II) Examples that Parallel the Trinity
……….II.1) Cerberus
……….II.2) Time
……….II.3) Caesar
……….II.4) Space
III) How the Trinity’s Logical Consistency is Sort of Everyone’s “Problem”
…..III.A) Non-Christian Religions/Systems
……….III.A.1) Monotheism
……….III.A.2) Polytheism
……….III.A.3) Naturalism and Other
…..III.B) The Banach-Tarski Theorem

I. The Trinity Logically Defended (with Math – Set Theory)

First, let me try to justify how one God can be three Persons, all of whom are distinct from one another, yet of the same substance and fully God. This involves a little bit of mathematics, but it’s nothing too advanced and I think it’s interesting enough, so those who aren’t friends with math don’t need to worry.

So, how do we do this? Some good examples are given by Peter Abelard for example. If we have a bowl of wax with no shape versus a figure made out of the same amount of wax, these are clearly two different “things”. Yet they are the same wax – it’s the same substance. This is because a difference in identity does not mean a difference in what it’s made of. If we have a tower made out of stone, this tower is both “hard” and “stone”. However, the same could be said of any small stone, which is not necessarily a tower.

However, these examples illustrate only a part of the issues. I don’t feel they incorporate all the aspects we need. For example, the tower can be both “stone” and “hard,” but the tower and the little stone are clearly not equal and don’t each constitute the whole the way each Person of the Trinity constitutes God.

So let’s go to the math. In set theory, an infinite set is a group of elements (numbers), that goes on forever. For example, {1, 1, 1, 1…} is an infinite set of 1’s. {-2, -2, -2…} of -2’s, {1, 2, 3, 4…} is the infinite set of all natural numbers, and so on. Let’s look at all natural numbers – {1, 2, 3, 4…}. Let’s say we split that into all odd natural numbers {2, 4, 6, 8…} and all odd {1, 3, 5, 7…}. The thing is, even though these are subsets of the set of all natural numbers, they still have the same number of elements as their parent set (infinite).

Now, you can play around with these. You can add or subtract or multiply them. So {1, 1, 1, 1…} * 2 = {2, 2, 2, 2…}. Let’s do a little experiment. What happens if we subtract 1 from {1, 1, 1, 1…}? Well we get {0, 1, 1, 1…}. But 0 is not a relevant element – it doesn’t signify a number, but the absence of one. This is why it’s never written down unless it serves to illustrate the relationship of another actual number. So the number “23” can be written down as “000023” (as is the case in organizing files which have or expect a lot more files), but that’s really just a waste of time and ink to write if it has no other purpose. The same goes for something like 12.5, which technically also equals 12.50 and 12.500, etc. So {0, 1, 1, 1…} is the same thing as {1, 1, 1, 1…} and subtracting “1” from it gives us the same set because it has an infinite number of “1”‘s.

So how does this relate to our original purpose? Let’s take our set of all odd numbers: {1, 3, 5, 7…}. What happens if we subtract not one or two numbers, but another infinite set from it? Let’s say {1, 3, 5, 7…} – {1, 1, 1, 1…}. This simply equals {0, 2, 4, 6, 8…}. Notice that this equals exactly our set of all even numbers when we simplify it by removing the irrelevant “0” at the front. So what does this mean – that the set of all odd numbers is “greater” than the one of all even? No, because if we did the same to the even one, we’d get the odd as well: {2, 4, 6, 8…} – {1, 1, 1, 1…} = {1, 3, 5, 7…}. The same happens if we add {1, 1, 1, 1…} to either. So they are clearly not smaller or greater than one another.

Now this is the part that directly relates to the problem of logically understanding the Trinity. Let’s look at all natural numbers: {1, 2, 3, 4…}. Clearly, by definition, the two subsets of all odds and evens are contained by it. After all, we pulled them from there. However, what would happen if we divided our set of all evens by 2? {2, 4, 6, 8…} / 2 = {1, 2, 3, 4…}! We can do the same to the odds by subtracting {1, 1, 1, 1…}, which we saw gave us the even set and then we can divide by 2 again.

What does this mean? Is the parent set of two sub sets actually smaller than them? No, it can’t be, because it also contains them. Simply put, the terms “subset” and “parent-set” are terms that we use for convenience, because we can’t understand infinity and our bias naturally gets in the way. If we take these three sets to represent our theological issues, we can easily see how the whole problem of the Trinity is resolved. If we substitute the set of all real numbers, namely {1, 2, 3, 4…} with “God,” and odd {1, 3, 5, 7…} with “God the Father,” and even {2, 4, 6, 8…} with “God the Son,” we can see that just as the odd and even infinite sets are equal to each other and to the original set, so also God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit can be fully God, yet three different Persons. You can do the same with three subsets, every third number: {1, 4, 7, 10…}, {2, 5, 8, 11…}, {3, 6, 9, 12…}, to show a more direct parallel to the Trinity. For example, divide the third set by 3 to get {1, 2, 3, 4…}, and you can subtract the first by {1, 1, 1, 1…} and the second by {2, 2, 2, 2…}. And the subset of even numbers isn’t 1/2 of all natural numbers, it is “fully” (mathematically; not identically) all numbers, just as God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit are each fully God but distinct from one another, but not God, without it being tritheism, modality (where all three are different manifestations of the same Person), or the like. You can do this with any number of sets: so a Binity, Trinity, Quadrinity, Pentinity, Hexinity are all logically possible and justifiable.

I.A. Objections

However, five objections I can personally think of immediately come up, and I’ll list them by least to most serious.

I.A.1. Equality

First of all, if any of the subsets contain any of the others, doesn’t that make the other inferior/superior? So all even numbers {2, 4, 6, 8…} – {1, 1, 1, 1…} = all odd {1, 3, 5, 7…}. However, this is our minds fooling us again. We showed both contain each other, and if something is both “smaller” and “bigger” than something else in the same proportion, it’s simply equal to it. We showed that by the fact that the parent-set {1, 2, 3, 4…} contains and is contained by both of the subsets.

I.A.2. Identity

The next question that can easily come to mind is that, if the subsets are contained within one another and with the parent-set, does that mean that they are each other? Does this mean that Jesus is God the Father, and “all” of God? No, because as we noted earlier, there’s a difference between identity and substance. A wax sculpture is made out of the same wax as a shapeless bowl of wax, but it’s not the same structure. The point of our little mathematical demonstration was to show that neither God the Father, nor Jesus Christ, nor the Holy Spirit are inferior to one another nor to the Godhead. All odd numbers might have as many numbers as all even numbers (and all real numbers), but you will never find a “3” in the set of all even numbers. That element simply does not exist there. In the same way, it wasn’t God the Father or the Holy Spirit who was incarnated, but only Jesus Christ.

I.A.3. Infinity and the Real World

But do we have infinity in the real world? There are many things in math that don’t necessarily exist in the real world, such as the square root of -1, i, so perhaps this shows what can’t exist. But this is not the case. An ancient Greek called Zeno of Elea proposed countless paradoxes in reality that were unsolved for over 2000 years until Georg Cantor came. In fact, it was for the very real reason of these paradoxes that set theory was invented in the first place!

Let me give an example. Imagine you are standing at one end of a room and want to get to the other. However, you only take a step that reduces the distance by half. So, your first step gets you half way across the room, your next takes you halfway across the remaining half (1/4), and so on. The problem is that there is always distance between you and the remaining distance if you keep dividing it in half. The issue illustrates that if there is always a point between two points in space, how can anyone traverse an infinite amount of distance? Zeno had many other illustrations of this paradox. For example, let’s take an archer who shoots an arrow. Would you agree that this arrow exists in a specific space at a given time whether it’s in motion or not? Yes? Then how is it in motion if one can assign it such a place? When does the arrow move to the next infinitesimal point, which by definition has zero space between it and the one the arrow occupies? How can one even calibrate different speeds of different arrows? As Aristotle cites him better than my explanation:

If everything when it occupies an equal space is at rest, and if that which is in locomotion is always occupying such a space at any moment, the flying arrow is therefore motionless.

Aristotle seems to refute Zeno on the grounds that time is not indivisible and you can never truly get a “still” arrow that’s actually moving, but he entirely misses the point (as he sometimes does when he doesn’t agree with someone). Zeno’s paradox is actually predicated upon this very refutation. The room example shows this, and it’s a little obscured with time in the arrow example.

Some objections to Zeno’s Paradoxes have included the idea that space and time are not continuous but discrete (ironically this would then support Zeno’s Arrow example). However, space must be continuous due to the Weyl Tile Argument, and so does time which is mathematically equivalent to space as Einstein showed. The Weyl Tile Argument itself has objections, but to me they amount to nothing more than a “metaphysical somehow” without explanation.

I.A.4. Infinite Sums and Limits

There’s a counter-example to our little mathematical play above. There’s ways one can add up infinite sums which converge whose limits have different values (a good example can be seen here). This doesn’t invalidate our method (we move “1’s” from the “back” to derive certain answers above), because limits are not the actual result of infinite sums. This is shown by the fact that the sum of all natural numbers (1+2+3+4+…) has a limit that converges to -1/12 – not only a fraction which is less than 1, but a negative! Moreover, the famous example of Hilbert’s Hotel does the same thing we do – by moving the elements around.

Finally, even in the link above, the author acknowledges Riemann’s conclusion that an infinite series that converges has a limit of any positive value, which if anything could be more support for our hypothesis. So I’m not exactly sure if he misspoke, or didn’t recognize the difference between equality and limits.

I.A.5. The Existence of Numbers and the Simplicity of God

The last two objections are actually closely connected. First, doesn’t our example fail because God has no “parts” whereas our sets have elements (1’s, 2’s, etc). If God is the “First Principle” (that is, everything was created by Him), then he can’t have parts which means something created Him (!). Second, many philosophers will tell you that numbers don’t actually exist in and of themselves! But how can this be? If I have four $1 bills in my pocket, I have $4, all of which are numbers. And no one is disputing that. However, would you have any numbers without those dollar bills? Is a rock still hard if it didn’t exist?

The answer according to most philosophers today, with whom I agree, is “No.” Let’s put it this way: does the color red (“redness”) exist? We would of course say yes. We have red sweaters, red markers. I even have a red car (a Toyota Yaris). But would the color red exist without those objects (sweaters, markers, cars)? How can it? You might say, “It’s not the sweaters themselves intrinsically that make red to exist, but the light’s wavelength reflecting off of them that’s red.” But isn’t light a “thing”? Without which the color wouldn’t exist? This school of thought is called Nominalism, which says that the color “red,” the number “two,” and according to some even the past and future, don’t exist other than in name only, for our convenience. To give them a physical existence outside the name, would be the fallacy of language. It opposes the philosophical tradition from Aristotle, through Boethius down to Anselm of Laon, of Universalism, which says that “redness” exists whether the objects physically portray it or not. I personally agree with Nominalism (which our objection appeals to). The concept of redness certainly exists. After all in professional chess, one doesn’t need to carry out a losing game: if one can see there’s no way out, one can quit before checkmate has technically occurred. But the discussion takes place about what actually exists, and a concept without any power to be carried out has no place in a result-oriented framework. There’s simply no way to have the color red without an object to manifest the color. Suffice to say, we’re giving the second objection the benefit of the doubt.

But whether numbers exist intrinsically or not does not in any way invalidate our logical defense of the Trinity any more than the work of an applied mathematician’s or an engineer’s plans means he can’t make a real bridge. These are merely representations of a truth. And the second objection actually solves the first, that of God’s simplicity. If numbers (and thus elements or parts) don’t exist, then we’re simply talking about a reflection of God’s power or magnitude, without any parts or elements. This reflection is accurate with “elements” (the numbers), because they denote something innumerable (infinity). This might seem paradoxical, or downright contradictory, but Zeno’s Paradoxes and other aspects of Set Theory (such as Cantor’s Diagonal Proof) illustrate that these are real issues (with real solutions) and it’s just our mind playing tricks on us. At the end (for those who’ve had the patience), we’ll see that it is in fact the finite that is by far the mysterious thing in reality, not the infinite.

Another question regarding God’s simplicity is to suppose that God does have parts if He is three Persons. However, this isn’t the sense in which God can’t have parts, which would imply there is something more powerful than Him that created Him out of those parts. Nor are they actual parts in the sense that they are smaller (or larger) than the whole, as we showed.

II. Examples that Parallel the Trinity

Naturally, the defender of a concept as counter-intuitive as the Trinity wants to give a direct example that illustrates it. What does all that hooey with numbers and infinities above mean if you can’t see something that makes sense? And I agree. You can have the perfect answer to your most pressing question, but of what use is it to you if it’s in a language you can’t understand? Below I will give two examples that I disagree with (Cerberus and Time), and two that I agree with (Caesar and Space).

II.1. Cerberus

An example that William Lane Craig, the Christian apologist, academic, philosopher, theologian and much more, gives is that of the mythical Cerberus. This guardian of Hades was a huge black dog with three heads. Clearly for it to make any cohesive move, all three heads would have to simultaneously agree, with perfect, total, and equal control. And yet all of them have minds (and are “persons”) of their own.

The problem I personally have with this is that this creature doesn’t exist. Technical existence itself isn’t the issue. But the fact that we don’t have a physical illustration means that this example can easily be mishandled as a sort of imaginary “panacea” with which any issue, true or not, can be solved. For example, how can I make a square circle? Well I will appeal to the mythical square-circle beast of the Hyperboreans. How can I make a married bachelor. Haven’t you heard of the Dutch comic book hero Ringman?

II.2. Time

A personally favorite example, until somewhat recently, was the analogy of time. The past, present, and future are three parts of time. They are all time themselves. And they can’t exist without co-existing. Without the past you can never get to the present or future. Without the future, it means time has ended (and so the past and present have ceased to exist). And without the present, you don’t have a reference point to distinguish from the past or the future, and so neither would really exist (and without the present, it means time has also ended anyway).

However, there’s a few problems I think critically injure this example. The fact that the length of the past is different from that of the present (an instant?) or the future isn’t relevant. The analogy doesn’t need to go that far – the point is to show how “three in one” is possible. But mathematically speaking, neither of these three descriptions are in any way objective. If there is a parallel universe with their own time (and space), to them our time would be neither past, nor present, nor future (perhaps they would call it frast? Pruture?). Moreover, the philosopher who popularized Nominalism to the present day, Peter Abelard, considered the past and future to be just as non-existent universals as numbers. I’m a little reluctant to agree about that, but on the whole it seems to me that this example has simply lost its touch.

II.3. Caesar

This isn’t about Julius Caesar himself, and not specifically about the title the Roman emperors starting with Augustus adopted after him. It has more to do with the early 4th century brief structure of Roman government, called the Tetrarchy (not to be confused with the Judean one during Jesus’ day). Basically, the Roman emperor Diocletian divided the empire into four areas of authority amongst four individuals (himself and three others). Every one of those four people were “Caesar,” and each represented the entire empire in his respective region – one man was basically the entire government/emperor in the respective situation he was in. Of course, this is divided power, or full power in a divided region, but we’re dealing with finite amounts.

II.4. Space

A different example I have a little more faith in than #3 above is that of space. An object has three dimensions. It can’t exist without either one and all three are space themselves. They are infinite in the sense of not having an indivisible unit and are interdependent in many of the ways and relationships that we explored mathematically in Section I (you need to stack an infinite amount of “lengths” to get a “width,” for example). They are real physically and mathematically, and one can’t say it’s the fallacy of language for calling them length/width/height, or that they are universals and like numbers may not intrinsically exist.

III. How the Trinity’s Logical Consistency is Sort of Everyone’s “Problem”

The fact is, for anyone to explain existence the way it is, one has to deal with something very similar to the Trinity. Whether Muslim, Jew, or Hindu, or even atheist, the problem comes up one way or another. If anything, Christians got a 2000 year head start with the issue.

III.A. Non-Christian Religions/Systems

III.A.1. Monotheism

I will first explain how this is a problem for the monotheist who considers God to be all-powerful (omnipotent). In the 14th century, the Eastern Orthodox theologians Barlaam of Seminara and Gregory Palamas got into a bit of a disagreement. Their point of contention was regarding the mystical nature of the Christian’s connection to God. While Gregory Palamas supported the traditional concept of the mystic’s relationship, Barlaam had another idea. In his heterodox view, he considered all revelation, miracles, and general experiences of/with God to be symbolic only. In his view, God didn’t even create the world Himself because of its impurity, God could have nothing to do (not even physically) with its fallen, impure creation. This is actually a similar argument Muslims often employ as to why they don’t think Jesus could be God, which clearly misses the implications Barlaam expounds.

The solution to this predicament specifically isn’t our purpose here. However, if God is all-powerful and “infinitely infinite”, and according to Muslims or Jews, cannot be Triune, how can he create anything that’s differentiated from Him? How can a chair exist without it being a part of God – without it being a part of God? Aristotle answered this by saying power does not equal identity (something we introduced and agreed with above). However, the question of identity is inescapable here. Take the Earth – the chair is a part of it. The wood it was made of came from it. It’s in the world and a part of it. Without our solution with set theory in Section I, you cannot really explain this problem.

III.A.2. Polytheism

This problem might seem alleviated by considering multiple, non-omnipotent deities. The gods of Hinduism, indigenous religions, or the dualism of Zoroastrianism seem to solve this and a host of other problems, for which reason Europeans were occasionally attracted to them (Honderich, Ted (ed.), The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, “Zoroastrianism” (1995), p.923). The rest of “everythingness” is some unidentified, primordial force – chaos.

But from where did everything, including these gods come? If they were eternal, why are they this way? If an infinite amount of causes (infinite regress) occurred, or it spontaneously came into existence, that only begs the question to be asked again (more details below).

III.A.3. Naturalism and Other

Pure naturalism (and non-omnipotent Deism) face the same problem as (III.2) above. Why does the universe contain 10^80 electrons and not 10^79 or 10^81? I’m not arguing that this proves there must have been a God who created everything/something at all. I’m only pointing out that the answer is the same logically consistent answer as how the Trinity can be true and non-contradictory. If the cause that originated the universe was eternal, why did it create the universe in this way? Randomly and arbitrarily you say? But if there were an infinite number of possible random variations, like Zeno’s Paradox, how was one even “picked”?

This question becomes even more complicated when one considers the Banach-Tarski Theorem and its implications for this discussion.

III.B. The Banach-Tarski Theorem

This last part deals with something slightly more abstract and mathematical than Section I, but in my opinion infinitely (pardon the pun) more interesting and rewarding.

There is a not very well-known mathematical paradox called the Banach-Tarski Theorem. It’s very closely related to Zeno’s Paradox we discussed above, but in a profoundly different and more daring way.

Let’s take the definition of a line: a string of points. What is the distance between each neighboring point? Zero. A point has no dimensions; it technically has no presence, yet it certainly exists: the slope of the tangent to a curve at a certain point is different than another. Black holes technically have a singularity that exists in zero space-time – a fact that baffled Einstein to the point of incredulity, leading him to reject their existence. So what do we make of this? The Banach-Tarski Theorem explains that because of this property of points, you can create objects out of them – literally out of nothing! There’s an excellent video that explains this and how it’s possible at Vsauce. The video also has a short and excellent explanation of Cantor’s Diagonal Proof (yes, that there is something bigger than infinity!), which you can’t really find anywhere else.

If we apply this to (III.A) above, the origin of anything becomes the question that Section I aims to resolve, in which specific case it deals with the Trinity. Causation might be a poor way to describe things as physicists will tell us, since it implies time, which doesn’t exist before time, but it’s accurate enough conceptually for us to illustrate the problem.

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10 thoughts on “The Trinity Logically Defended

  1. You say “Christianity is well-known for its unique doctrine of the Trinity” but would better say “Christendom is well-known for its unique doctrine of the Trinity”. In Christianity there are the real followers of Christ, who not only believe what he and his heavenly Father says, but also who follow up the tasks the Nazarene Jew has given. That master teacher, who was born 2020 years ago clearly declared God and gave proof that he is the Messiah and the Way to God. That God declared Himself that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and that is what real Christians do believe. Those who believe that Jesus is a god son not only adhere three gods, an abomination in the eyes of God and in the eyes of His son, lots of those false Christians we do see bowing down in front of images of their god and taking part in many pagan events and rituals.

    Strange is that you having 1 god the Father, 1 god the son and 1 god the Holy spirit, do not seem to see you are adhering in the same way as other pagan worshippers of a tri-une god, three gods, instead of the Only One true God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus and his disciples. 1+1+1=3 = polytheism. Though you look down at other polytheist religions, where we also can find different groups which have a binary or a trinairy god they claim to be also one god.

    Real Christians should accept the Word of God, which are infallible, and should follow the Jew Christ Jesus, who like any other Jew also believed in One and Only One True God, the God of Israel.

    • 1. What do you think of the Logos in John 1? What is your opinion of John 5:18?

      The Trinity might not be explicitly stated in the Bible by Jesus, but if you will notice Jesus doesn’t talk about many things: circumcision and observance of the Law, salvation by faith or works, etc. In his day, there was no reason for him to bring these topics up to a Jewish, largely uneducated audience. The Bible doesn’t discuss the nature of inerrancy, for example, or how to tell which books were to be part of the Canon. There is the solitary allusion, like in the case of the Trinity, in John 10:35 that there is inspiration involved in Scripture. But other than that, not a word!

      As Paul explains (Philippians 2:5-8 and Romans 9:5), Jesus wasn’t merely a human prophet – the Messiah was a miracle worker, which was an unknown concept in Judaism at the time, so one can wonder what kind of human “only” the Messiah was, especially being sinless. He can forgive sins (Mark 2) and give the authority to have sins be forgiven (John 21). I think the evidence weighs a bit against your position. The Evangelist makes a very interesting remark from the mouth of the Pharisees in Mark 2:7: “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” – he leaves this unanswered; why if he would’ve shuddered at the thought of a divine Jesus? (compare John 12:4-6 for example, where in v.6 John makes sure to explain Judas wasn’t really concerned for the poor in his question)

      Unless one supposes Paul deviated Christianity so radically 20 years after Jesus walked (an impossibility for one man to do this within living memory of the same generation who saw Christ), I don’t see how one can maintain that originally Jesus didn’t claim to be divine simply because no Jew would have. Jewish origins pertain to God’s revelation in the Old Testament, but they do not prescribe 100% what Christianity would be like. This is abundantly shown by the Eucharistic discourse in John 6 which the author purposefully makes a point of that it offended the Jews (whose understanding and acceptance was merely emotionally-based), as well as verses like Matthew 13:34-35. Moreover, the fact that none of this raised any controversy, unlike questions about the Law, shows that no one found it to deviate from Christianity.

      2. 1+1+1=3, I agree. I never said that each of the three Persons are an entire, separate god themselves as that little arithmetic implies, and the discussion with infinity as an example illustrates the point.

      The fact of the matter is, you need this same explanation to explain how an infinitely infinite God could create anything finite, fallible, and not a part of Him.

      3. “lots of those false Christians we do see bowing down in front of images of their god and taking part in many pagan events and rituals.” – what pagan events and rituals?

      4. “do not seem to see you are adhering in the same way as other pagan worshippers of a tri-une god…Though you look down at other polytheist religions, where we also can find different groups which have a binary or a trinairy god they claim to be also one god.”

      You can find groups of 2, 3, 4, 5, any amount of gods. That similarity doesn’t mean anything, any more than the fact that you find a magician and evildoer named Bar-Jesus in Acts 13:6. This type of fallacy, stimulated by mere similarities with no connection, is what led to ancient manuscripts to change the name “Jesus” in Acts 13:6 because it is the “holy name” not to be disrespected. And please show me one place where there was more than one person in a deity – I have not found such an example in paganism or anywhere. It is this and other unique doctrines in Christianity, Christendom, The Way, The Galileans (as Julius the Apostate called it), and whatever you wish to call it, that led to many bold and daring developments in theology, philosophy, and logic such as the works of St. Anselm of Canterbury, Peter Abelard, and so on. I have not found it anywhere else, and I’d be very interested to see it.

      In the end, as Hebrews 2:5-18 and 4:14-5:10 says, Jesus was our example: like us he was tempted, but sinless. What better model could you have, than God? Even if there was only one Person in God, wouldn’t God want to show His example and send it likewise, not a copy? And who better to represent Him?

      • The Logos in John 1 is The Word which is a result of Speaking.
        In the garden of Eden, so long before Abraham was born, God made a promise to give mankind a solution against the curse of death. That promise is the Messiah, the sent one form God. That Kristos or Christ is the Nazarene Jew Jeshua from the tribe of king David, who is now better known in Anglo Saxon countries as Jesus Christ.

        Jews never believed in a trinitarian God, but only believed in a singular God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

        Jesus was given authority by his Father if Jesus is God he would be the same as the Father, being God, having already that authority. In case he would be God he also would know everything. We do know Jesus did not sin, which means he would not lie. Though he told he even did not know when he would return to the earth or when the end times would be and he did not know who would be seated next to him because (according to what Jesus said) those things where given to his heavenly Father the only One God.

        What use would it be to god to come to the earth, fake His temptation, death and resurrection, all things which God can not have? It also would make a very cruel being of this God, because still now He let all those people suffer.

        The Holy Name is God’s Name and not Jesus his name.

        The false or pagan worshipping in several Christian churches we can see in how certain priest carry the bible, use incense to it, bow down in front of statues and paintings to present God, Christ Jesus and even saints (in some churches). Though God is very clear that no graven images may be made of Him.

        “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” (Exodus 20:4 ASV)

        They also celebrate the 25th of December and Easter two pagan holy days, instead of keeping to Nisan 14-15, the Pesach or Pascha, the one holiday given by God, we should keep remembering. Many christians also celebrate Halloween, All Saints, All Souls a.o. festivals coming from pagan groups.

        Concerning threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity worshipped gods there is a plenty-fold.

        Just to mention a few:
        Mother goddess Hebe (the Maiden) Hera (the Mother) Hecate (the Crone) and/or Rhea (the Grandmother/Crone); Nemesis/Rhamnousia/Rhamnusia/Adrasteia/Adrestia ; Aphrodite with Urania (Aphrodite of the heaven) ,Pontia and Pandemos (Aphrodite for all the people); Charites; Harpies; Horae; Heliades; Oenotropae; the Chief goddess (Juno, Minerva, Venus); the Moon goddess ( Luna in heaven Diana on earth Proserpina in hell); the Supreme goddess [Juventas (the Maiden) Juno (the Mother) Minerva (the Wise)]; Triple goddess stone; the Lion-headed goddess; the Sovereignty (Ériu, Fódla, Banba); Zeus (to which Jeshua his name was changed into Issou or Hail Zeus); Qudshu-Astarte-Anat; Trisiras and Dattatreya ; The Delian chief triad of Leto (mother), Artemis (daughter) and Apollo (son) and many others in many religious groups, even in Islamic groups where we can find Al-Uzza (“Mighty one”)

        The pagan god worshipped in The Mystery Religion of Babylon was a triune god made up of Father/Son/Mother of God. We see this abomination as a constant theme not only among pagan religions but also condemned in The Bible as YHVH is not a triune god but the one and only living God. It is the worship of this triune “Trinity” representation of gods that apposes the God in The Bible as YHVH declares “you shall have no other gods before me”… “Before me” is the English translation of the Hebrew words “in my face”. The same expression used of Nimrod who was described as a “mighty hunter before YHVH’ or rather a “mighty hunter in the face of YHVH” implying rebellion against God. So we are to “have no other gods in YHVH’s face!”

        The declaration that YHVH is ONE not a Trinity is the central theme in the True Faith of every man of God in the Bible, including The Messiah. This knowledge of YHVH being the one and only Creator and God is the very “mark” on the forehead of the Elect called “The Shema” that marks the very elect for eternal life. When Jeshua or Yahusha (the True Messiah)= Jesus Christ, was asked the single greatest commandment of God, he quoted The Shema (Shema means “hear” in Hebrew) by quoting literally from The Torah:

        Mark 12:29

        “The most important one,” answered Yahusha, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is one.

        Jeshau was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 verbatim. This passage of Deuteronomy is also defined as the “mark between our eyes and on our right hands”. It IS the “mark of YHVH” that sets us apart from this “false religion” whose mark is literally The Trinity made on the foreheads of newly baptized babied and over the hearts of literally billions every day as they make “the sign of the cross” in the name of The Trinity.

        The declaration known as The Shema and declared by The Messiah as The greatest command of all… is a direct contradiction of The Trinity! The Shema is, in fact, the very “Mark of God” apposing the “Mark” of the beastly religious system of Babylon… which is The Trinity. This “mark” of God displayed by The Messiah and expressed as the single greatest command as we see below is an outright denial of the pagan Trinity gods:

        Deuteronomy 6

        4 Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one. 5 Love YHVH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols (mark) on your hands and bind them (mark) on your foreheads.

        The true Messiah Jeshua again demonstrated this singular knowledge of YHVH is the foundation of eternal life. For He is the giver of life and to receive that life you must be in covenant with YHVH through the Yahushaic Covenant:

        John 17:3

        3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You (YHVH), the only true God, and (then there is) Yahusha (the) Messiah whom You (YHVH) have sent (as the Passover sacrifice for sin).

        “And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3 ASV)

        Jesus is clearly the sent one from God, the one promissed int he Garden of Eden. In him we should put our faith for salvaiton seeing Jesus is the Way to God, not God himself.

        “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6 ASV)

        We not only should believe in Jesus to be the sent one from God. We also should believe the sender of Jesus, the Only One God, Who declared

        “22 …, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. ” (Luke 3:22 ASV) and this was said by the God Who does not tell lies

        “God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19 ASV)

        “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].” (John 1:18 ASV)

        God can not be seen, though Jesus was seen by many, who did not fall death, some of them even came out of death.

        Trinitarians seem to neglect what is written that God gave His only begotten son. Nowhere is written that it was He Who came down ontot the world which would be in contradiction to the Biblical teaching concerning incarnations. It is by the son of God that life may come over us. and it is that son who has become our highpriest before Gdo and the mediator between God and man. In case Jesus is God he cannot be the mediator and cannot be a priest for God.

        “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 ASV)

        “Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9 ASV)

        “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.” (John 5:24 ASV)

        “And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing [unto him]; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.” (Hebrews 11:6 ASV)

        “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, [even] Jesus;” (Hebrews 3:1 ASV)

        “whither as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 6:20 ASV)

        “For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus,” (1 Timothy 2:5 ASV)

        “and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel.” (Hebrews 12:24 ASV)

        “19 ¶ What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; [and it was] ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one; but God is one.” (Galatians 3:19-20 ASV)

        “But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.” (Hebrews 8:6 ASV)

        “And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.” (Hebrews 9:15 ASV)

        +
        The bible tells us to worship only One True Gdo of Israel and gives an indication we should not adhere any false gods or have connection with such false gods as tri-une gods we may find in many religions. Because you do not seem to be aware of such tri-une gods I only mentioned just a very few.

        We also see this same triune god is a consistent them in every pagan religion which evolved from the Mystery Religion of Babylon. This ‘religion of Satan’ cleverly apposes the Mark of YHVH in the minds (mark of the forehead is a metaphor for knowledge) with what is called The Mark of the Beast.

        Please let us always remember
        John 17:3

        3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you (YHWH= Jehovah), the only true God, and (your) Messiah Jeshua, whom you have sent.

        and look forward to that non-ending life in peace of whichis spoken in Isaiah and david.

      • [b]YOU: In the garden of Eden, so long before Abraham was born, God made a promise to give mankind a solution against the curse of death. That promise is the Messiah, the sent one form God. That Kristos or Christ is the Nazarene Jew Jeshua from the tribe of king David, who is now better known in Anglo Saxon countries as Jesus Christ. Jews never believed in a trinitarian God, but only believed in a singular God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.[/b]

        ME: It’s a mistake to always judge what early Christians believed based on what Jews believed. In Jesus’ day, the Jews believed in two Messiahs. Moreover, Jesus clearly said that he would reveal things hidden since the beginning (Matthew 13:14-17). Jesus was given authority by his Father if Jesus is God he would be the same as the Father, being God, having already that authority. The Father is a different person and he was an example for us, so he wouldn’t have used authority that contextually belonged to the Father. When you teach a child, you stoop to his level; you don’t use big words and expect him to understand everything an adult would.

        [b]YOU: In case he would be God he also would know everything.[/b]

        ME: The fact that Jesus’ human nature didn’t know everything, does not preclude his divine nature from knowing it. In Revelation 19:12 Jesus’ name is known only to him – does this exclude God? Clearly a metaphor. In the same way Jesus, who is a physical metaphor for our relationship to God, can have his physical brain not know some things that he truly knows. As Paul writes in 1 Cor 13:8-12, we ourselves are quite limited by what we can truly know. Jesus’ human nature allowed him to feel doubt and puzzlement (Matthew 26:42//27:46). So this doesn’t prove anything, other than the fact that God didn’t want us to know the last days (see Daniel 12:6-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, 1 Cor 15:50-52, and 2 Peter 3:8-13 have equal reluctances about naming the specific time (like the Zoroastrians) or place (like the Muslim Hadith))

        [b]YOU: What use would it be to god to come to the earth, fake His temptation, death and resurrection, all things which God can not have?[/b]

        ME: The temptations weren’t fake any more than God’s decisions to alter His plans according to people’s sins or righteousness is fake despite knowing everything. (Jeremiah 18:7-10)

        [b]YOU: It also would make a very cruel being of this God, because still now He let all those people suffer.[/b]

        ME: Are you seriously using the Problem of Evil to argue for your Arianism? And how is this connected to it???

        [b]The Holy Name is God’s Name and not Jesus his name.[/b]

        You’re confusing “Deity” with “Person”. Please see the definition of Trinity.

        [b]The false or pagan worshipping in several Christian churches we can see in how certain priest carry the bible, use incense to it, bow down in front of statues and paintings to present God, Christ Jesus and even saints (in some churches). Though God is very clear that no graven images may be made of Him.[/b]

        Your interpretations of other men’s expression of worship are not related to this discussion. The graven images meant idols, not merely any sculpture, since the Ark of the Covenant had graven images of angels.

        [b]They also celebrate the 25th of December and Easter two pagan holy days, instead of keeping to Nisan 14-15, the Pesach or Pascha, the one holiday given by God, we should keep remembering. Many christians also celebrate Halloween, All Saints, All Souls a.o. festivals coming from pagan groups.[/b]

        Misinformed and unrelated to our discussion.

        [b]Concerning threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity worshipped gods there is a plenty-fold. Just to mention a few…[/b]

        I didn’t ask for triads of three gods. I asked for anything like the Trinity where there is one god and two or more persons. Or two gods with three or more, and so on. I can pick and choose three groups of deities or any group. The Pythagoreans had Tetrads, etc.

        [b]The pagan god worshipped in The Mystery Religion of Babylon was a triune god made up of Father/Son/Mother of God.[/b]

        I’m hoping the site you directly copied this from is yours. These are three deities. The ancient mystery religions had a three-fold manifestation of the Sun, but this was three different manifestations of the same deity (http://www.trinitytruth.org/paganoriginsofthetrinity.html). Plato has something similar to the Trinity, but in his case it’s a form of modalism, and again, nothing unique.

        [b]We see this abomination as a constant theme not only among pagan religions but also condemned in The Bible as YHVH is not a triune god but the one and only living God.[/b]

        You misunderstand one God to mean necessarily one person. As this post shows, this is not necessarily the case. Moreover, you have yet to explain verses like Psalm 110:1 and Genesis 19:24.

        [b]The declaration that YHVH is ONE not a Trinity is the central theme in the True Faith of every man of God in the Bible, including The Messiah.[/b]

        This conclusion does not follow from your previous observations or verses you cite. Trinitarians agree with the Shema. You misunderstand what the Trinity is.

        [b]This knowledge of YHVH being the one and only Creator and God is the very “mark” on the forehead of the Elect called “The Shema” that marks the very elect for eternal life. When Jeshua or Yahusha (the True Messiah)= Jesus Christ, was asked the single greatest commandment of God, he quoted The Shema (Shema means “hear” in Hebrew) by quoting literally from The Torah:
        Mark 12:29
        “The most important one,” answered Yahusha, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is one.
        Jeshau was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 verbatim. This passage of Deuteronomy is also defined as the “mark between our eyes and on our right hands”. It IS the “mark of YHVH” that sets us apart from this “false religion” whose mark is literally The Trinity made on the foreheads of newly baptized babied and over the hearts of literally billions every day as they make “the sign of the cross” in the name of The Trinity.[/b]

        Nice unproven assertion. And billions every day? I don’t think that many people are baptized daily. Even John in the Syrian Apocalypse of John couldn’t do more than 11,000 a day. By the way, the mark of the forehead and hands is good thoughts (forehead) and good deeds (hands) as Ezekiel shows.

        [b]For He is the giver of life and to receive that life you must be in covenant with YHVH through the Yahushaic Covenant:
        John 17:3
        3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You (YHVH), the only true God, and (then there is) Yahusha (the) Messiah whom You (YHVH) have sent (as the Passover sacrifice for sin).
        “And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3 ASV)
        Jesus is clearly the sent one from God, the one promissed int he Garden of Eden. In him we should put our faith for salvaiton seeing Jesus is the Way to God, not God himself.
        “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6 ASV)
        We not only should believe in Jesus to be the sent one from God. We also should believe the sender of Jesus, the Only One God, Who declared 22 …, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. ” (Luke 3:22 ASV) and this was said by the God Who does not tell lies
        “God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19 ASV)[/b]

        This is nothing more than his human nature setting an example for us (Philippians 2:5-8).

        [b]“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].” (John 1:18 ASV)
        God can not be seen, though Jesus was seen by many, who did not fall death, some of them even came out of death.[/b]

        God the Father wasn’t seen. And no one truly has seen Jesus either: we ourselves are a part of our true, full potential (1 Cor 13:8-12; 15:35-49). The euphemism of “no one has seen God” isn’t to be taken so literally. Moses sees Him in Deuteronomy. He perhaps sees an image, like Samson’s parents in Judges 13, but the same type of metaphor appears when God says no one knows His name, yet reveals His name as Yahweh. Even the angel’s name in Judges 13:18 is unknown and unpronouncable, so your citation of “no one has seen God” (who is a spirit) and people have seen Jesus (a body) are apples to oranges. Not to mention our real name is unknown, at least Christians’ is unknown as well (Revelation 2:17). In Revelation 19:12 it says Jesus (the white rider) has a name no one but he knows, yet in the very next verse it tells us this is “The Word of God” and in v.16 “king of kings and lord of lords”. If it’s a metaphor does this mean God doesn’t know it either? In Romans 3:23 Paul refers to “all having sinned.” Does this include Jesus?

        [b]Trinitarians seem to neglect what is written that God gave His only begotten son. Nowhere is written that it was He Who came down ontot the world which would be in contradiction to the Biblical teaching concerning incarnations.[/b]

        I gave you an explanation about this and cited verses that show his equality with God: John 5:18, Romans 9:5, Philippians 2:5-8. His relationship as son (Jesus) to father (God) is a euphemism and for our pov’s benefit as an example – similarly to how God doesn’t change His mind (being omniscient; Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 (which u cited)), yet in Jeremiah 18:7-10 from our pov He speaks as if He does.

        [b]It is by the son of God that life may come over us. and it is that son who has become our highpriest before Gdo and the mediator between God and man. In case Jesus is God he cannot be the mediator and cannot be a priest for God.[/b]

        Why do you suppose this? The Bible doesn’t seem to agree at all. In 1 Samuel 2:25 Eli tells his sons, “If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.”

        [b]The bible tells us to worship only One True Gdo of Israel and gives an indication we should not adhere any false gods or have connection with such false gods as tri-une gods we may find in many religions. Because you do not seem to be aware of such tri-une gods I only mentioned just a very few.[/b]

        You can say the same thing about Akhenaten’s monotheism or the monolatry/monotheism of various other groups such as the Hanifs of Pre-Islamic Arabia. Moreover, your mentions were tritheist groups or modalist three-fold expressions of the same thing. In Plato’s case it was a transformation or derivation (like the Gnostics such as Marcion). None of these were genuinely triune. I’m still waiting. What you actually need to do is understand metaphor and how it can be employed, particularly by God and Jesus who use it from the first page of the Bible, to the very last. The people of those days were neither pedantically technical (like we are and need to be in our modern technological age), nor did they care about the specifics of various doctrines – all they cared about was who was the Messiah that was going to save them from their sins. That’s the most important thing and that’s what’s repeated throughout the New Testament from page 1 (and sometimes in the Old – Daniel 9).

        [b]We also see this same triune god is a consistent them in every pagan religion which evolved from the Mystery Religion of Babylon. This ‘religion of Satan’ cleverly apposes the Mark of YHVH in the minds (mark of the forehead is a metaphor for knowledge) with what is called The Mark of the Beast.[/b]

        You’ve proven none of this. Consistency and validity do not equal something true or sound. I can say that “If I were superman, I could fly and shoot laser beams from my eyes.” That’s valid, but not true. Arianism and Trinitarianism are both consistent. One of them isn’t true. The mark of the Beast is in no way connected to any of this discussion at all, I don’t know where you find the link, and the religion of Satan is any apostasy, which you haven’t proven is the case with Trinitarianism in any way.

        [b]Please let us always remember
        John 17:3
        3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you (YHWH= Jehovah), the only true God, and (your) Messiah Jeshua, whom you have sent. and look forward to that non-ending life in peace of whichis spoken in Isaiah and david.[/b]

        Please let us always remember

        John 5:18

        This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

        Would you be one of those Jews?

      • You yourself write ” Jesus was given authority by his Father if Jesus is God he would be the same as the Father, being God, having already that authority. The Father is a different person and he was an example for us, so he wouldn’t have used authority that contextually belonged to the Father. ” giving the clear answer for everybody to understand simply that Jesus is not God but the one who was sent by God and the one who received authority from God.

      • you said: The Logos in John 1 is The Word which is a result of Speaking.
        In the garden of Eden, so long before Abraham was born, God made a promise to give mankind a solution against the curse of death. That promise is the Messiah, the sent one form God. That Kristos or Christ is the Nazarene Jew Jeshua from the tribe of king David, who is now better known in Anglo Saxon countries as Jesus Christ.

        me: John 1 says that LOGOS pre-existed and was the means by which creation was accomplished, and the Logos is called God. Furthermore, calling Jesus “Yeshua/Jesuhia/Yahshua” are all incorrect, btw.

        you: Jews never believed in a trinitarian God, but only believed in a singular God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

        me: Some Jews. Not all Jews believed this, though this was more evident in the NT than old. Many Jews at Jesus time believed in the “two powers”–this was a Jewish heresy in the Talmud. Genesis 1’s plural “our”, Genesis 19 “YHVH rained down fire from YHVH,” among other things may allude to plural persons in the One God. Regardless, the issue is what the NT believed. the Jews did not believe in Messiah that would return 1000s of years later, or that had a role in creation, or that would live in Nazareth, or get killed by the Romans. The Jewish people as a whole thru their Rabbinate embraced bar Kozivah.

        you: Jesus was given authority by his Father if Jesus is God he would be the same as the Father, being God, having already that authority.

        me: This is because Jesus is the Son, of course He gets all His power from the Father since that’s how the Father-Son relationship works in Trinitarianism. The Father is the Source of the Trinity. This is why Jesus is spoken of as being BEGOTTEN from the Father–eternally we say. Jesus always had this authority since Him and the Father are both eternal without beginning.

        you: In case he would be God he also would know everything. We do know Jesus did not sin, which means he would not lie. Though he told he even did not know when he would return to the earth or when the end times would be and he did not know who would be seated next to him because (according to what Jesus said) those things where given to his heavenly Father the only One God.

        me: Jesus was only capable of ignorance in His human nature. His Divine nature always knew all things. When Mark 13:32 refers to Jesus ignorance it speaks in reference to him as son of man–human. Jesus’s divinity was the instructor of His Humanity. Jesus as God was never ignorant of Judgement Day since He clearly knew all the events leading up to it. Acts 1:7 says there are certain things God does not want revealed to man, and the time of Judgement is one of them. This is the point of Mark 13 also, God does not want man to know but to be vigilant. The knowledge of the end comes from Divine nature and it is not permitted for us to know it, so this reason–Jesus coming as the Father’s apostle says He does not know, but because He cannot say.

        you: What use would it be to god to come to the earth, fake His temptation, death and resurrection, all things which God can not have? It also would make a very cruel being of this God, because still now He let all those people suffer.

        me: None of it was fake, since God took human nature, a real human body and suffered all the things man does. He was both God and man.

        you:The Holy Name is God’s Name and not Jesus his name.

        me: And what name does Paul say is the name above all names? Does He say Jesus or YHVH? Jesus! In Acts when people call upon the Name of the Lord what is it? YHVH or Jesus? Jesus! What does Jesus instruct his Apostle to baptize in? The Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

        you: The false or pagan worshipping in several Christian churches we can see in how certain priest carry the bible, use incense to it,

        me: The Gospel actually, and this procession of the Book is taken from the Synagogue.

        you: bow down in front of statues and paintings to present God, Christ Jesus and even saints (in some churches). Though God is very clear that no graven images may be made of Him.

        “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:” (Exodus 20:4 ASV)

        me: This is part of the prohibition against worshipping false gods. Also, if God had a problem with bowing before Statues of holy ones, he would not have instructed Moses to make statues of Angels in Exodus 25, then the Prophet Joshua would not have bowed before the Ark with the statues in Joshua 7.

        you: They also celebrate the 25th of December and Easter two pagan holy days, instead of keeping to Nisan 14-15, the Pesach or Pascha, the one holiday given by God, we should keep remembering. Many christians also celebrate Halloween, All Saints, All Souls a.o. festivals coming from pagan groups.

        me: Christmas is not pagan. Its based on 10 Nisan–when the passover lamb was set aside. In 2010 10 Nisan corresponded to March 25–the Feast of the Annunciation when the Son was made incarnate in the Virgin Mary, 9 months later is Christmas. Easter is timed and based in part on the timing of Passover, in fact Easter in most languages is the word for Passover–pescah, pascua etc. But its located on Sunday since the NT makes the point of Sunday being the name–not any actual date on the Calendar. We have no commandment from the Church or NT to observe the Jewish Holydays, in fact St Paul in Colossians 2:16 makes the point to the Gentiles to not let people judge them in this matter. The NT created Judges–Apostles and Bishops, including St Peter–they are the ones that decide Holydays now since they were given power to “bind and loose” Halloween is not actually a holyday, whereas All Saints and All Souls are.

        you: Concerning threefold, tripled, triplicate, tripartite, triune or triadic, or as a trinity worshipped gods there is a plenty-fold……………..

        me: Again, their triads were not all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, the had separates wills. Futhermore, some pagan gods could die, most if not all of them were beleived to have a beginning. The Trinity has none of that! BTW, if you want to draw similiarities, you can do the same with the Bible. Some of Jesus and YHVH’s titles were also used by pagan gods like “He who rides on the clouds” was used by Baal, but its applied to Jesus in Daniel and the Gospels. The name El, El eyon were used by pagans for their god. Pagan kings like Nebuch. were called “king of kings” too. You will find animal sacrifice in pagan religions, you will find circumcision. Pagan had temples, priests, altars, a “head god” and lower gods (angels). Pagans had demons, some of which the Bible accepts and alludes to. Some of the rites the Jews were given resembled those of pagans.

        you: The pagan god worshipped in The Mystery Religion of Babylon was a triune god made up of Father/Son/Mother of God.

        me: Provide reputable evidence. Babylon gods could be executed btw.

        you: We see this abomination as a constant theme not only among pagan religions but also condemned in The Bible as YHVH is not a triune god but the one and only living God. It is the worship of this triune “Trinity” representation of gods that apposes the God in The Bible as YHVH declares “you shall have no other gods before me”… “Before me” is the English translation of the Hebrew words “in my face”. The same expression used of Nimrod who was described as a “mighty hunter before YHVH’ or rather a “mighty hunter in the face of YHVH” implying rebellion against God. So we are to “have no other gods in YHVH’s face!”

        me: Triune God is ONE GOD, not three. We do not profess 3 wills, 3 independent beings. We say there is only One God and that God is the Father and the Father begets a Son with all His Power, and from those two they have the Holy Spirit. BTW, you adopt the Rabbinical view of the “before YHVH” meaning “against.” But it could very well be Nimrod was set aside by God as the means of scattering man from Babel. Regardless, the Trinity is not “gods”

        you: The declaration that YHVH is ONE not a Trinity is the central theme in the True Faith of every man of God in the Bible, including The Messiah. This knowledge of YHVH being the one and only Creator and God is the very “mark” on the forehead of the Elect called “The Shema” that marks the very elect for eternal life.

        me: One God, again we do not believe in “3 gods” You deliberately mischaracterize it as tri-theism to get away with calling it pagan. The Shema is alluded to in 1 cor 8:6 where Father=God, and Son=Lord. In fact, the Aramaic version of it calls Jesus MarYah which is the Aramaic term for YHVH. Jesus is called creator by John and Paul directly, “thru him all things were made” If YHVH is the only creator, then logically Jesus is YHVH. Jesus alludes to Isaiah 6 as being Himself in John’s gospel.

    • you said: That God declared Himself that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and that is what real Christians do believe.

      me: Yes, the only begotten son of God, whereas humanity is created and adopted sons, not begotten like Christ is. This sonship makes him equal to His Father as He mentions in John 5 He is to receive honor equal to that of the Father.

      you said: Those who believe that Jesus is a god son not only adhere three gods, an abomination in the eyes of God and in the eyes of His son, lots of those false Christians we do see bowing down in front of images of their god and taking part in many pagan events and rituals.

      me: Polytheism teaches there are multiple gods, and each god has an independent will, separate from each other. Whereas, Trinity teaches 3 persons, and one God, that is the Father is the source of the Trinity and the Son and Spirit both have their source in the Father, yet without a point in time being created. The three person all have the same Will—that of the Father, they cannot contradict each other, or operate independently, they only do the Father’s will. Jesus repeatedly teaches He only does the Father’s will, Christ also confesses He has a second another will–that of a human. He is both God and man, He is not the Father, but begotten by Him eternally and before the world. St Paul teaches in Colossians 1 and 1 Cor 8:6 teach Jesus is the one responsible for accomplishing creation–that the Will was that of the Father and the Son was the means by which it was accomplished. Here is what Colossians 1:16-17 says about the Son:

      For IN HIM were created all things in heaven and on earth,

      the visible and the invisible,

      whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers;

      ALL THINGS were CREATED THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM.

      He is BEFORE all things,

      and in him ALL THINGS HOLD together.–Colossians 1:16-17

      So how can you say Jesus is not God?

      • where do you get it from that “This sonship makes him equal to His Father as He mentions in John 5”?
        the apostle Paul speaks about the new creation, the restoration of the relationship between God and man. Jesus never claimed to be God, contrary he clearly indicated that he was lower than God. We also know he was even lower than angels, though God is, was and always shall be the Most High.

        “27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 28 ¶ Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe. 30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.” (John 14:27-31 ASV)

        “17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. 18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 It is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye have sent unto John, and he hath borne witness unto the truth. 34 But the witness which I receive is not from man: howbeit I say these things, that ye may be saved. 35 He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light. 36 But the witness which I have is greater than [that of] John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” (John 5:17-36 ASV)

        “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV)

        “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3 ASV)

        “30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:30-35 ASV)

        “21 ¶ Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,” (Luke 3:21-23 ASV)

  2. Marcus said: where do you get it from that “This sonship makes him equal to His Father as He mentions in John 5”?

    me: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. –John 5:23

    Jesus said He is to receive the SAME honor the Father gets? Which means He equal to the Father, otherwise it would be wrong to given Him equal honor–idolatry even.

    you: the apostle Paul speaks about the new creation, the restoration of the relationship between God and man.

    me: Nothing in Colossian 1 narrows it down to just the “new creation” St Paul did not say the “new” heavens or “new earth,” furthermore it says He made both visible and invisible.

    you: Jesus never claimed to be God, contrary he clearly indicated that he was lower than God.

    me: Perhaps, not explicitly, Christ in the gospels rarely even refers to Himself as the “Son of God” or the “Christ,” yet Christ does say He is to receive the same honor the Father did, did get accused of blasphemy be the High priest for saying He is the Son of God. His Apostle Thomas called Him God in John 20:28. Hebrews 2:7 does not say Jesus was lower than the angels but was MADE lower than the angels, Hebrews 1-2’s point was not God did not pick an angel to do His work for the New Covenant, but His Son who according to Hebrews 1:6 the Angels are to worship, so before Christ’s incarnation as a man–He was greater than the angels! It was only by becoming a human that Christ became “a little less than the angels” Heb 2:9 even says Christ was only made less than the Angels “for a little while.”

    you: We also know he was even lower than angels, though God is, was and always shall be the Most High.

    me: Jesus never ceased being God and the Most High, Hebrews is talking about Jesus taking on a human nature–which is lesser, but that does not mean He ceased being God, just means The Son willingly took on weakness with Human nature.

    you: “27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 28 ¶ Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe. 30 I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.” (John 14:27-31 ASV)

    me: Christ as a man is inferior to the Father since any thing created is inferior. If Christ here speaks as God, he only refers to the fact the Father is unbegotten, whereas the Son is begotten, only in that sense is the Father greater since the Son derives from the Father, not that this makes Him inferior in power to the Father, since the Son says the Father has given Him all that are His. The fact Christ is called the only son of God, refers to Him being God by nature–come from God himself–unique from how anything else can be called a “son of God.” John 1:1 calls the Son “God” and that “through Him were all things made” John 1:3, just like Colossians 1 taught!

    you: “17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. 18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 It is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye have sent unto John, and he hath borne witness unto the truth. 34 But the witness which I receive is not from man: howbeit I say these things, that ye may be saved. 35 He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light. 36 But the witness which I have is greater than [that of] John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” (John 5:17-36 ASV)

    me: Notice it says, ” that all may honor the Son, EVEN AS THEY HONOR the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. “?

    YOU: “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV)

    ME: This is speaking about Him as a human, since in v 24 it says He will hand the Kingdom over to His Father to show what He did, this is speaking as a man since before it,it speaks about His death and resurrection.

    you:“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3 ASV)

    me: Again, Christ–Messiah is a man, and it alludes to Him as being a king–human king especially.

    you:“30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:30-35 ASV)

    me: He is the Son of David and the Son of God? Both human and God.

    you:“21 ¶ Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,” (Luke 3:21-23 ASV)

    me: Not sure about your point here.

  3. Pingback: How is Infinite, eternal punishment for finite sin fair? (and other questions) | Ruminations

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